quoting deljzc:

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It all came down to Shawn Andrews, a right tackle, vs. a QB when we sat with Tommy Maddox as our guy.  I don't believe Rooney had to just overrule Cowher.  I think the concensus between Cowher and Colbert was Shawn Andrews and the Owner stepped in and picked Roethlisberger.  That's my take on the situation. 

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That is an outright fabrication. Cowher was in 'win now' mode and desperately wanted an OT or CB. Colbert and the entire scouting department wanted a QB, and they had Rivers 1 and Roethlisberger 2. The owner sided with the notion that you don't pass up a franchise QB, having been burned in '83 by passing on Marino.  You like to add Maddox and his contract into this as a distraction, to continue the lie that Colbert somehow 'lucked into' drafting Roethlisberger.  The guy who 'settled' for a QB in that draft was Tom Donahoe, who attempted to jump ahead of the Steelers to get Roethlisberger.  He failed and 'settled' for JP Losman (by trading a future #1 to Dallas).  Colbert, whether you can ever bring yourself to admit it or not, drafted Roethlisberger, Polamalu and every other great player that has fueled the Steelers recent reign of dominance over the NFL.

quoting TheStallworthSwann:

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quoting deljzc:

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It all came down to Shawn Andrews, a right tackle, vs. a QB when we sat with Tommy Maddox as our guy.  I don't believe Rooney had to just overrule Cowher.  I think the concensus between Cowher and Colbert was Shawn Andrews and the Owner stepped in and picked Roethlisberger.  That's my take on the situation. 

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That is an outright fabrication. Cowher was in 'win now' mode and desperately wanted an OT or CB. Colbert and the entire scouting department wanted a QB, and they had Rivers 1 and Roethlisberger 2. The owner sided with the notion that you don't pass up a franchise QB, having been burned in '83 by passing on Marino.  You like to add Maddox and his contract into this as a distraction, to continue the lie that Colbert somehow 'lucked into' drafting Roethlisberger.  The guy who 'settled' for a QB in that draft was Tom Donahoe, who attempted to jump ahead of the Steelers to get Roethlisberger.  He failed and 'settled' for JP Losman (by trading a future #1 to Dallas).  Colbert, whether you can ever bring yourself to admit it or not, drafted Roethlisberger, Polamalu and every other great player that has fueled the Steelers recent reign of dominance over the NFL.

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In my mind this is how it works....Colbert and co come up with a draft value for every player, they then ask Cowher (or whoever is the coach) for weights.  So, they may have had Ben rated as higher than Shawn Andrews originally, but when they applied the weighted average Andrews came out as higher based on the coaches need.

However, the owner is really there for a big picture point of view, if he sees something as best for the organization long term then he should over rule the 'right choice' coming out of Colberts system.

This is exactly what happened, just as it should have. Colbert didn't cry like a little girl and go running out of the room.  He didn't quit because of 'owner meddling', and for the most part the Rooney's are confident enough in Colbert's system that they stay out of these decisions unless necessary. Of course, this is all speculation, but regardless Colbert must have a pretty tight system in place in order for everyone to get in their opionions and come away with the right choice.

Colbert wanted to draft Roethlisberger; Cowher vehemently wanted to draft an OT or CB.  When the owner learned of this, he simply advised that you don't pass on franchise QBs, so Cowher lost, Colbert won, and 2 Super Bowls later, the rest is history.  None of that is speculation or wishful thinking; it's what happened.

A great discussion thread and anytime TSS and deljzc go head to head, its sure to be a good read. I had Sepulveda ranked high on my board, as a great football player, punter and a position of a need and was more than willing to spend a 4th round pick. As had been discussed, the second the  Jags took Adam Podlesh ahead of us, it did force the hand of the Steelers in trading the 6th round pick to ensure we got him.

I've always been a fan of the move, because A) I thought we could use a great punter and B) Sepulveda was one of the best NCAA punter's of all time. I read alot of Del's stats on how many, if not all, punting categories do not impact wins in the NFL. While I appreciate the numbers, I just can't be talked into the notion that selecting Sepulveda was a bad move. Of course I would have rather just used a 4th on him, but the 6th round pick was necessary in order to attain him.

Like Del, I am a HUGE proponent of draft picks. They are as good as gold. All of them. I do not like giving them up to pick up frivilous mediocre FA talent. However, the beautiful part of the draft, is that any 6th round pick can become a HOF'er. In saying this, I still agree with the choice to give one up in order to attain a great player at a position of need. This is probably more of a qualitative decision as opposed to a quantitative one. Stastically speaking, it probably wasn't the right move. However, sometimes you just have to act on your instincts.

quoting deljzc:

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quoting pitterpatter:

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What I am doing is calling a spade a spade.  Colbert is not the infallable, perfect GM some here make him out to be.  He is average at best.  And succeeds on the Roethlisberger pick and the fact he has ownership that strongly believes in stability.

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I think this is where you lose the vast majority of the message board.  No one is saying that Colbert is infallible, perfect, etc, etc... He's just very, very good at his job, and an incredibly good fit for the Steelers.  The truth is, I don't think you understand how the entire Steelers front office works.

The 'front office' of the Steelers consists of 3 groups working together...think of it as the holy trinity.  Colbert is in charge of evaluating talent, player contractis, and managing the cap as far as I can tell.  The coaches, led by Tomlin, are in charge of the 'needs' of the offense and defense.  They tell Colbert what they are looking for in the players, how to weight the value of players,etc,etc.  Tomlin's influence has grown, and if you are paying attention you can definately see his influence in the draft and free agency moves.  Finally, the owners are in charge of the overall philosophy and 'Big Picture'.  When you keep pointing out that Rooney 'over-ruled' Colbert in drafting Big Ben, you are missing the point...it was Rooney's job to see that a franchise QB was necessary even though the coaches, from their perspective, had more pressing needs and a serviceable QB.  Colbert had done his job and evaluated that Big Ben was, in fact, a franchise QB.

So, maybe in your mind, this diminishes Colbert's value.  However, many people in Colbert's position wouldn't stand for giving the coaches and owners a part in these decisions, or be able to put together a workable system for including their input.  You have to understand that even though the Steelers put in an incredible amount of work into preparing for the draft, they have a very limited time to actually make a decision once they are on the clock.  To be able to get the input from the coaches, owners, scouts, and evaluate what's on the board, all in time to make a selection is an incredible feat, and I think you underestimate just how good of a job Colbert does in doing it.

The Steelers front office is one of the best in the NFL.  You can evaluate it by looking at record, Super Bowl wins, or even just looking at the talent the Steelers have on the field. 

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Come on.... that season three QB's were ''evaluated'' by everyone and their mother as potential franchise QB and top-10 selections.

Maybe if Colbert had correctly put Roethlsiberger ahead of Manning and Rivers and selected him #1 overall would I give him credit in his ''evaluation process''.  But he basically got who was left.  And the rest is history,  Roethlisberger has lived up to his potential and more and this franchise should be a winner for the next decade.

It all came down to Shawn Andrews, a right tackle, vs. a QB when we sat with Tommy Maddox as our guy.  I don't believe Rooney had to just overrule Cowher.  I think the concensus between Cowher and Colbert was Shawn Andrews and the Owner stepped in and picked Roethlisberger.  That's my take on the situation.  We'll never know for sure, but that's what I believe.

I'm also not saying Colbert is bad at talent evaluation.  He's not.  He's adequate as a lead scout or pro personnel man.  He's great at providing input towards decisions.  But I just don't think he's a General Manager.  And he loses sight of the forest amoung the trees on many occasions.

 

 

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You failed when you stated Colbert is not a GM. When in fact, he's proven to be a capable GM.

We can use the comment about, "loses sight of the forest among trees on many occasions" for any GM in the NFL. Based on Colbert's history and the Steelers success, some would rank him among the best GM's in the NFL. I really don't understand your beef with Colbert.

Let's assume that TSS is right.   That the Steelers acquiring Sep in the 4th round on the 112 th pick was 'brilliant'. 

  The last 5 yrs, every pro-bowl punter was either undrafted or taken later than Sepulveda was.  I guess the drafts wer much deeper in those other years.    Those front office genius' in Oakland got a 4-time Pro-bowl punter in the 5th round. 

   I know, I know it's just a matter of time before Sep gets his Pro Bowl accolades.  But if that is true, is it not also too early to declare all the anomymous guys taken after Super Dan as 'stiffs'?   TSS has it both ways,  those other 3rd yr guys, taken after Sepulveda, stink (end of story), but Sepulveda, despite missing a yr and being (maybe) a top 10 punter, is simply greatness assured to his discerning eye.  Pay no attention to the the fact that the price paid to acquire him is higher than what other teams have paid for any of the recent Pro Bowl Punters.

 

quoting deljzc:

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But would I rather have a great punter versus camp fodder?  Sure. 

 

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Yet another post that attacks the value of 4th round picks.

 

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Poor choice of words on my part.  Of course 4th round picks (and lower) make the team.  (Rarely)But...

Are 4th round picks as valuable as 1st round picks?  If lower round picks were so valuable, wouldn't you agree that it would be worthwhile to trade down every draft just to try and pick up as many picks as possible?  

1) We can assume that multiple lower round picks are not as valuable as a single high pick.

2) Teams with fewer 'holes' in the roster will (barring injury) have fewer draft picks that make the roster - AND WILL ACCORDINGLY VALUE LOWER ROUND DRAFT POSITIONS LESS that teams that need an overhaul.

What is a 'hole' on the roster.  Not just a place to upgrade - but a real actual roster number deficiency caused by FA losses / retirements / injuries / cuts etc.

3) As for Colon becoming a Starter as a 4th round pick - What was the situation on the line when he came here?  DIdn't the Steelers have holes on the OL? 

If you don't have 'holes' it's harder for lower round picks to make the team as they have to be an upgrade over existing players.  If you don't see much potential for that why not take a bit part player.

Were the Jags wrong to take Podlesh too?

quoting AFan:

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Let's assume that TSS is right.   That the Steelers acquiring Sep in the 4th round on the 112 th pick was 'brilliant'. 

  The last 5 yrs, every pro-bowl punter was either undrafted or taken later than Sepulveda was.  I guess the drafts wer much deeper in those other years.    Those front office genius' in Oakland got a 4-time Pro-bowl punter in the 5th round. 

   I know, I know it's just a matter of time before Sep gets his Pro Bowl accolades.  But if that is true, is it not also too early to declare all the anomymous guys taken after Super Dan as 'stiffs'?   TSS has it both ways,  those other 3rd yr guys, taken after Sepulveda, stink (end of story), but Sepulveda, despite missing a yr and being (maybe) a top 10 punter, is simply greatness assured to his discerning eye.  Pay no attention to the the fact that the price paid to acquire him is higher than what other teams have paid for any of the recent Pro Bowl Punters.

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This is the type of thinking that deljzc relies on as well.  That is, relying on largely irrelevant and meaningless statistics such as gross average and net average to judge individual punters and the overall worth of the punting position.  Lechler makes the Pro Bowl because he simply booms the ball to achieve maximum distance on kick after kick, and as a result regularly has a mammoth average as compared to other NFL punters.

What the Steelers drafted in Sepulveda, and what they get from Sepulveda, is what we might refer to as a superb situational punter who can be relied on not just to get distance when the situation calls for it, but to also put the ball where it needs to be put, when it needs to be put there. I don't and never have gotten all wrapped up in the notion of Sepulveda being some sort of tackling machine, and I doubt the Steelers ever have either.  Sepulveda doesn't need to ever make a Pro Bowl (which is based on gross and net average), because his value lies in what he can and does do in individual situations when the outcome of a game could be affected by where he puts the ball.

You don't make the Pro Bowl based on, for instance, having placed a punt on the opponent's 2 yard line in a crucial 4th quarter situation in a 1-point week 3 win, or kicking two out of bounds inside the 10 in key situations in a week 14 win; you make the Pro Bowl by having a 49.9 yard gross average.  But I'll take Sepulveda over a Lechler-type every time, because he's a punter who impacts field position in a more subtle yet meaningful way, and over the course of the season that matters in more than a few games.  I submit that, for example, in the Vikings game in week 7, Sepulveda played a key role that doesn't show up in the box score, which shows that DS punted 6 times, with a 41.3 yard gross average, and a 40.0 yard net average.  Are those Pro Bowl/Lechler numbers? Nope. But on those 6 punts Sepulveda impacted the game, and to the tune of more than 1 percent (or whatever silly number deljzc asserts that represents a punter's contribution to a game), because he affected Minnesota field position, even when it only amounted to a matter of yards in the Steelers favor, because in a tight game like that, every yard counts immensely.

 

quoting TheStallworthSwann:

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quoting AFan:

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Let's assume that TSS is right.   That the Steelers acquiring Sep in the 4th round on the 112 th pick was 'brilliant'. 

  The last 5 yrs, every pro-bowl punter was either undrafted or taken later than Sepulveda was.  I guess the drafts wer much deeper in those other years.    Those front office genius' in Oakland got a 4-time Pro-bowl punter in the 5th round. 

   I know, I know it's just a matter of time before Sep gets his Pro Bowl accolades.  But if that is true, is it not also too early to declare all the anomymous guys taken after Super Dan as 'stiffs'?   TSS has it both ways,  those other 3rd yr guys, taken after Sepulveda, stink (end of story), but Sepulveda, despite missing a yr and being (maybe) a top 10 punter, is simply greatness assured to his discerning eye.  Pay no attention to the the fact that the price paid to acquire him is higher than what other teams have paid for any of the recent Pro Bowl Punters.

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This is the type of thinking that deljzc relies on as well.  That is, relying on largely irrelevant and meaningless statistics such as gross average and net average to judge individual punters and the overall worth of the punting position.  Lechler makes the Pro Bowl because he simply booms the ball to achieve maximum distance on kick after kick, and as a result regularly has a mammoth average as compared to other NFL punters.

What the Steelers drafted in Sepulveda, and what they get from Sepulveda, is what we might refer to as a superb situational punter who can be relied on not just to get distance when the situation calls for it, but to also put the ball where it needs to be put, when it needs to be put there. I don't and never have gotten all wrapped up in the notion of Sepulveda being some sort of tackling machine, and I doubt the Steelers ever have either.  Sepulveda doesn't need to ever make a Pro Bowl (which is based on gross and net average), because his value lies in what he can and does do in individual situations when the outcome of a game could be affected by where he puts the ball.

You don't make the Pro Bowl based on, for instance, having placed a punt on the opponent's 2 yard line in a crucial 4th quarter situation in a 1-point week 3 win, or kicking two out of bounds inside the 10 in key situations in a week 14 win; you make the Pro Bowl by having a 49.9 yard gross average.  But I'll take Sepulveda over a Lechler-type every time, because he's a punter who impacts field position in a more subtle yet meaningful way, and over the course of the season that matters in more than a few games.  I submit that, for example, in the Vikings game in week 7, Sepulveda played a key role that doesn't show up in the box score, which shows that DS punted 6 times, with a 41.3 yard gross average, and a 40.0 yard net average.  Are those Pro Bowl/Lechler numbers? Nope. But on those 6 punts Sepulveda impacted the game, and to the tune of more than 1 percent (or whatever silly number deljzc asserts that represents a punter's contribution to a game), because he affected Minnesota field position, even when it only amounted to a matter of yards in the Steelers favor, because in a tight game like that, every yard counts immensely.

 

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TSS I agree with you 100% on the punter situation and every yard counts,this is my Arguement for a Healthy RB, does not the same logic apply when FWP loses yards or doesn't gain the yards that he should,he has never been a good positve runner he has always been a minus,minus,no gain,big gain RB and now that he is hurt and 2nd string  the big gain is gone so a Healthy RB who gets  2 yards every time would be better than a unhealthy Parker.........

quoting playwitpoise:

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TSS I agree with you 100% on the punter situation and every yard counts [...] so a Healthy RB who gets  2 yards every time would be better than a unhealthy Parker

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 Come on now,  dragging Isaac Whatshisface into a discussion of punting and punters? 

Anyway, the Steelers do have a healthy RB who gets 2 yards every time. His name is Rashard Mendenhall.